And the curiosity is right there with it, because we're learning, we're watching, we're observing, we're seeing what happens. And the playfulness is there because, again, no rule book, we get to kind of be like, life's a game. Let me try this out. Let's see what happens and and it really opens up a joyful way of engaging with self care and the discipline part comes in the discovering useful discipline teams up with that because that acknowledges that it can take some time when we're creating a new habit or pattern for ourselves to get that really clear feedback.
Hi,
welcome to the lettuce loves you, the Podcast where we explore belonging and nourishment through the perceptions of body, Earth and community. I'm your host. Jeanell Innerarity, for over 25 years, I've been helping people come home to themselves through somatic or body based practice, dream, work, nature, connection and relationship with self, other, humans and spirit. I want to get beyond belonging as a buzzword and beyond nourishment as a fitness strategy, and get to the heart of what it really means to belong and what it really means to be nourished. Each of my guests has a unique take on these ideas, and I hope you'll take home a greater sense of what belonging and nourishment mean to you. I hope you benefit from listening to the lettuce loves you, and if you do, it would mean a great deal to me, if you would like rate and share the show so that more people can discover it and get the same benefit. Now let's dive into today's episode.
So welcome back to the lettuce loves you. I am really happy today to have Doctor doctor, to have Doctor Deborah Zucker here. Doctor Zucker is a naturopathic physician. Let me just start. I can start that over. Welcome back to the lettuce loves you. I'm really happy to have Dr Deborah Zucker here today. She is a naturopathic physician, a mental health counselor, a health coach and an award winning author of the book The Vitality Map. And I have had the privilege of knowing her for over a decade, and I can just say how consistently deep and caring and thoughtful she is as a person and as a practitioner, and I'm really pleased to be able to go deep on the topics of nourishment and belonging, which are central to her work. So Deborah, thank you for being here today.
Thanks for having me, Jeanell, and thanks for those kind words.
Yeah, absolutely, they're very true. So, Deborah, we met up in Bellingham when we both had just moved there, and we had a lot of mutual connections in the wellness world. And I was working in massage and hypnotherapy and yoga instruction, and you were a naturopathic physician and a health coach and doing therapeutic wilderness guiding, and we just had a lot of connections in common, both in the types of work we were doing and in the backgrounds we had, and also in the friends we were making in the town that we had just moved to. And I've participated in your workshops. I did a three day wilderness quest that you led. You were a guest on my first telesummit, Kiss Burnout Goodbye, way back in 2013 which seems like another lifetime time ago. Yes, I feel like we've both been through lifetimes of transformation since then, and I had the privilege of seeing your book, The Vitality Map, go from the idea stage to the award winning stage. And I have to say, I actually, I don't have it in front of me right now because I gave it to somebody who I thought would benefit from reading it. So I can't just, like, flip through it, which I normally like to do when I'm talking to somebody, but you know, it's the sort of book that you would hand to somebody and say. Okay, I think you really benefit from this. So I'm excited to talk to you about your newest developments, including the audiobook version of the vitality map. And in a moment, I'm going to give people a little sort of professional introduction to your background. But
I just wanted to
say hello. It's really good to see.
It's really good to see you too, and it's fun to just hear you revisit our connections and history. And yeah, there's been a lot over the years, and it's wonderful to be connecting with you again in this way.
Thank you. Thank you. So
more formally, Dr Deborah Zucker is a compassionate and experienced guide for individuals navigating life's most intense transitions. And as a naturopathic physician, a mental health counselor, a health coach and the award winning author of the vitality map, Deborah offers transformative women's circles, which I know Deborah, you've been doing for many years, and it's been such a deep, rich experience. I've heard so much feedback from people and you also she offers a virtual coaching and counseling and retreats and her signature nine month program vital you and with Deborah's guide guidance, clients consciously design their unique transformation, embracing freedom and confidence and ease as they learn to follow their heart toward healing and renewal. And I know that really following your heart and being kind of close to your your own inner nature is so key to your work. Can you say more about how you came to that?
Yeah, Well, I mean, I came into my work through my own healing journey that began in my early 20s. And so it feels a lot like what I'm offering is a direct extension of my own journey and and it's, it's been humbling. It's been, yeah, transformative. It's been up and down and all over the place and and it's like, I think walking that path myself, along with my clients, feels to me like it has to come from the heart, like that's, that's, you know, it's just like that, that deep connection with my authentic self, with my truth, with my emotional being, is is part of, yeah, how I connect and bring this work to the world and, and, yeah, and it's, you know, to me, it's like, it's All about I love that your work is about nourishment and belonging, that that's the emphasis here, because that heart connection is where that starts for both of those. And,
yeah, so a lot of resonance there.
So before we dive deeper into all of these wonderful topics that we've already opened up, I want to present something that I think is interesting that's happening today is that I've had an unusually stressful little stretch of time, and I'm having some brain fog, and you're starting to have some allergies, and so you might be a little snuffly, or you might have to pause and go, hang on, I have to sneeze, and I might forget some words, or lose my train of thought and have to circle back. And I think that it's an important conversation, because there's often this expectation that somehow, I've even had people say this to me. It's like somehow, if you're a counselor, you should never like you should figure out you shouldn't have any emotional challenges, or challenge relationship challenges, like you should, you have all the tools. It should be perfect now. And the same with working in holistic health, like, well, you have all the tools. If they really worked, why would you ever feel sick? Right? Like, how like, and so I want to dispel that myth and get into this sort of human and process oriented side of things, where no one's ever at this like sort of perfect stasis, where things never go up and down or feel challenging or need attention. And I'm curious what your thought process is around that concept.
I love that you're emphasizing that because, yes, like we're all just humans on the journey, and there's no such thing as a stress free life. And you know, our bodies having symptoms and responses to things is feedback for us, and it's part of how our immune system works. And, and, yeah, and I very much. Yeah, if anyone has me on the pedestal, please just like, knock me down. You know, it's just like, like, I don't want to be up there, like, I want to be relating person to person, human to human. And it's just, I think, especially in these times where, you know. We're navigating with such complexity and so much overwhelm of what we're all holding and being with as a human family in this world right now, it's like we need to be just human with each other and and yes, some of us have had particular training or life experiences that allow us to offer our gifts to support others, and we're still on the journey too.
I've been thinking a lot lately about what I even think the journey is, and like really getting back into that process oriented mindset that says it's not some sort of journey towards absolute perfection, and ultimately, we're all gonna die and so, like you're not gonna stop that, although some people are are trying. And so what does wellness actually mean in an imperfect world?
Yes, yeah, no, I love that you're questioning, you know, the journey, and there is no such thing as an end goal to get to, and no particular state that we attain, and then we have it. Because resilience is about navigating with the ups and downs and the twists and turns and life bringing us to our knees and finding our way back, you know, to a sense of balance and alignment with what brings us alive. And you know, I like to think of a journey. You know, through the lens of of like a pilgrimage, that our health and self care is like a life pilgrimage. So it's actually each and every step we're taking and how we hold ourselves, care for ourselves, and navigate whatever life brings us along the way, but that we can learn the skills and capacities to do so with more agility and flexibility and alignment with our own vitality and well being, what that looks like at any given time changes, because our life is constantly changing and our world is constantly changing.
Yeah, so I think that's a really good time to mention the vitality map. I don't know if you want to say road map, because roads feel very limiting the vitality map that you've created to help people navigate change in themselves, change in the world, and to stay in alignment with what they define as wellness for themselves in relationship to a changing world. So how did you come to that concept in particular, and then how did you distill it down into the specific
nine points?
Yeah, well, I mean, I mentioned before that this professional path emerged from my own healing journey. And so, you know that healing journey brought me to naturopathic school and then coaching, and then mental health counseling. So it's like that journey as has brought me through a lot of professional training, which has allowed me to look at the things that I've seen that have really supported my own ongoing vitality and well being and and look at that through the lenses of the different modalities that I've been learning. And I found that as crazy as it seemed like that there were some fundamentals that were missing, largely from the conversation, and you know, I've come to think of them as like basic life skills that we were never taught, that most of us were never taught that weren't modeled for us around how to care for ourselves, and that these were kind of even missing in The education and orientation of these holistic approaches to health, and so I began distilling them in the work that I was doing with clients and in workshops I was doing, and then eventually came up with an outline for the book and wrote the book. And so now there are nine keys that I lay out in what I call the vitality map, because it feels like, okay, like no one's ever really laid this out for us. Like, let's lay it out. Let's like, really look at how these build one upon the next. And so I think of them as foundational orientations that then extend out into the various habits and choices we make in our lives.
Yeah, that's really beautiful and feels really.
You use the word foundational, but like this sense of underlying foundation for all of the other aspects of the journey. And I love the word keys. I know I said. Points, just trying to find the word in my brain earlier, but, but I love the word keys, because there's this image of, like, unlocking different parts of the journey with that. And you have really, I think, expansive elements in there, so honoring your unique life, or facing and embracing your shadow, easeful discipline, which I know is such a core piece of your work, are some of the keys and and I love the way that you really model and honor easeful discipline for people in a way that I really haven't seen very many other places. And I'm wondering if you're if you think about the keys, if there's one that you notice that people either tend to really get excited about, like, Oh, I haven't worked on this before, nobody talked about this before, or if there's one that people consistently get stuck on, like, struggle with or have trouble integrating. I don't know if anything stands out in the extremes to you.
Yeah. I mean, I think there's two that people generally get, like, really excited about, keys, number five and six. So five is aligning with your Yes, and six is experimenting with playful curiosity.
And
yeah, so I'm happy to go into either or both of those, but just to answer the other part of your question, where people I think, can get stuck. Two come to mind for that one too. Key. Number two is facing and embracing your shadows, so so that that key definitely takes a deep commitment as well as support to be able to drop into the richness that's there and the importance that's there in terms of really allowing for the other, other unfolding to happen, and then discovering easeful discipline is another one, just because of people's really the habitual orientations towards what discipline is that can be very harsh and mean and judgey, So kind of coming into a new way, you know, can be a process for people.
Yeah, so there's a lot there. I'm happy to dive into
any of that. There's so much there. And something that stands out to me is that discovering easeful discipline and experimenting with playful curiosity are, like, I don't know if you'd say two sides of the same coin or opposite ends of the spectrum. It depends on how you're looking at them, but that there is this overarching cultural tendency in mainstream culture, anyway, of discipline being a forced, hard thing where you push yourself over your edges and you push yourself past your capacity or past your boundaries, and you make yourself do it, and then play is something that you stop being allowed to do when you're about four and and then that's not a thing that you do once you're in the school system, or being required to take on any kind of bigger responsibilities. And so I hear you, and I've seen you kind of start to break down those barriers and say, you know, what, if all of the responsible, adult, caring, disciplined things we do can be fun and playful and easeful and gentle, while also very strong and very effective. So I'd love to hear more about both your inner process developing that, and how you see people start to make sense of that and integrate that as they work with you.
Yeah. Thanks for Thanks for naming them being two sides of the same coin, because I do like those two keys go right together. And so yeah, the experimenting with playful curiosity really comes from the place of acknowledging the important, like, how many of us need to heal our relationship with health and self care, because our orientation can be so regimented and so full of these critical, strict voices inside that tell us that we're not doing enough. We should be doing this, or I failed again because I couldn't maintain this habit and just all these things that are wrapped up in what's supposed to be life giving and fulfilling, a sense of vitality. Instead, we, you know, find ourselves Yeah, in a relationship with ourselves that's Yeah harmful, for lack of a better word. And so. So experimenting with playful curiosity opens up the space for us to let go the rule book, let go of the rights and wrongs, listen to that inner guidance, and try things out. So the experimenting is like, we try things out like for a couple weeks, create an experiment for ourselves, and then we learn from it. So it's an active learning process. It's iterative. We get to like, see what happens, what how it makes us feel and and what changes and what doesn't. And if we like some of the things, we keep them. And if we don't like it, we scrap it and create a new experiment. So it's, it's, it's alive and dynamic, just like life is. So it feels way more aligned with, with, yeah, just a natural, organic way of holding ourselves in our health journey and and the curiosity is right there with it, because we're learning, we're watching, we're observing, we're seeing what happens. And the playfulness is there because, again, no rule book. We get to kind of be like life's a game. Let me try this out. Let's see what happens and and it really opens up a joyful way of engaging with self care and the discipline part comes in the discovering useful discipline teams up with that because
that acknowledges that
it can take some time when we're creating a new habit or pattern for ourselves to get that really clear feedback that things feel good, you know, it's like, you know, we let go of, yeah, just a habit that isn't serving us, and we had, can have kind of a detox time that happens, you know, Whether we're eating a food that isn't aligned for us, or drinking alcohol or some other substance that just isn't doing good things for us. When we stop doing those things, we have some detox or craving or or other things that happen. So there's in between time before we start feeling better. And so discipline is really key to come on board, to offer some structure, some clear strategy and and to actually be intelligent about how we're creating our experiments, to ground our experiments and the realities of our daily life. And so the two go together, because we're still creating experiments, but we're doing so in a way where we're setting ourselves up for success, success to learn and to be realistic with how what we're trying to change actually fits into the realities of our life.
That makes me think that the words and concepts of discipline and punishment have become synonymous, and that you've actually extricated discipline which is really healthy from punishment which is generally destructive, it's rarely, rarely helpful to people. And people have learned that discipline is punishing themselves. And that's a big unlearning.
It is a big unlearning, and it's really sad that the two have become synonymous, like you just said, because, like, when I think of discipline, and this is also within my book, I think of like the fierce love of a mama bear. So that archetype, you know, where it's like she has my back, you know, if I imagine that I have an inner Mama Bear, you know, just with that same energy that the mama bear has to take care of her cubs, it's like she has my back. She's gonna show up, she's gonna do what it takes. She's gonna, yeah, to stand her ground when that needs to happen, and so that that fierce love is really what's behind the discipline we're talking about. So it's like, yeah, like, when I really honor my unique life, you know, key number one, and really have that as the foundation of where my self care is coming from, then I'm going to do what it takes to take care of myself. And so it's not about right or wrong. It's not about like, some high bar I'm trying to get to. It's about loving myself, and it's about, you know, implementing the kinds of structures, asking for help, being smart about how I engage with the changes that I am seeking, so that I set myself up, you know, to be able to live a more vital life, to really be able to honor the preciousness of this life that I am here to steward, because no one else is here to do it. You know, it's up to me and and I'm here to steward. And I don't know how many days I have left in this life could be days. It could be weeks, months, years. I have no idea. None of us do, right? It's like life is unpredictable, and if I wake up to that and orient my self care from that place of of honor and reverence, you know, it's a word that I think of too, like I have this one life to steward here. How. Can I? How can I do this in a way that really supports my well being? And so a big part of that is letting go of those mean inner voices, you know, the punishing, the the strictness, the the Yeah, trying to live up to some ideal, and instead meeting myself right where I am in this moment with the current realities of the world and the people around me, and doing the best I can to guide myself, but knowing, you know, like I said, like these basic life skills that I might not have learned. So like, there's skills I can learn, there's capacities, there's supports I can bring on board. There's a lot I can be doing, but it can come from this other place of the fierce Mama Bear Love.
Yeah, when you talk about the fierce Mama Bear, it makes me think about your extensive experience in working in the back country and doing therapeutic nature based guiding, and I'm sure that that influenced the development of these keys and how you were thinking about it. And I'd love to know more about how you connect living in in this sort of in the modern developed world, with being deeply connected to I always struggle to use the word nature, because we are nature. This is nature. We've developed nature. But for lack of a better colloquial term that people will recognize as being out in the woods. How you connect that to your work in nature? Well, I
you know, we all have different backgrounds and Yeah, sort of connection with you know what nature means to us. And I think for me, from a young age, going to camp and having wilderness experiences, it became like the place where I could reground, wake up, feel, feel more at home in myself, more alive and like, Oh, this is who I am. This is where I'm supposed to be. And even as you know, life has taken me into different environments and and cities and and realities like, that's still foundational for me and I and I miss I'm not currently doing the wilderness programs, and I miss that because, because there is something that happens when we're out, you know, in nature, and it could be our backyard, it could be a part local park, or it could be, you know, in in a greater expanse of wilderness, but that is really deeply regulating for our human bodies and beings that just calls us into a level of awareness and awakeness that is hard to sometimes find without that. And so for me, it is. It's woven into everything and and it does seem so foundational to reconnecting with what I was just saying, these precious lives, these bodies we have and and there's a different pace that nature reflects to us, that I think is also incredibly healing in this chaotic, yeah, bombarding, overwhelming world that we are living in, or it can feel that way anyway. Yeah, that just reminds us to slow down, take a breath, feel our bodies, breathe the air, you know, just feel the sun in our skin. Yeah,
that makes me laugh a little bit, because I remembering now I haven't thought about this in a long time, but over a decade ago, I went on a three day guided journey with you, and there was one day of fasting and solo time where we went off by ourselves, and I slept for a good chunk of the day, and I wrestled with it so hard, because I felt like, No, I'm supposed to be making the most of this and alert and observing and like, doing all the things, and I just want to lay on the ground and sleep. And like, why am I wasting my time, and why am I squandering this opportunity? And
of course, that was my process, right? That was my my
my learning and my development in myself to be able to just rest and trust the power of rest, and that nature was holding that for me and inviting that and you held a space in a way that made that really okay and really valid, which is profoundly counter cultural, to say, Oh, you can, you can just rest. You don't have to be working. I think this comes up a lot in you. You talked about this a little bit in people. Uh, on their wellness journey, like, oh, I have to do the thing. I have to, like, have all of these, you know, projects, so to speak. And it happens, I think, in inner work too, where people have this idea, and it's so hypnotizing, I have to be working on myself all the time. I have to work on the oh, this has come up. I have to work on it. I have to work on I have to work on it, and that's valuable in a culture that's spent a long time not working on itself and the rest is so key to just receiving whatever wants to move through and not having to grasp onto every every tiny little piece. So,
yeah, yes, yes to that, yes to that. And I, yeah, I was just feeling with that too. Just the deep medicine of of, it's, it's like both, right? It's the deep medicine of just recognizing we are completely whole right now, like there's nothing else that we're we need to be. Or do you know? So there's like that of just acknowledging, like, I'm okay, like, I don't need to fix myself, like, to actually relax into that, that knowing and know that also it's just a natural part of life to evolve and grow and heal and and keep yeah emerging into Yeah, more of who we're here to be, but, but I guess I just wanted to name that in that context of rest, because it is counter culture and and We do live in a society that's so oriented around self development and that we need to get somewhere there's some bar that we're not living up to. And again, this comes back to healing our relationship with health and self care, disentangling and trusting in our own unique alignment, what that is for each of us, what the right pace is, who we're here to be, what, yeah, what it is to come home to ourselves.
So how does that intertwine with key number two that you mentioned earlier, facing and embracing your shadows.
Yeah, well, facing and embracing your shadows points at how we all, you know, it's like I orient around parts work. So just to name, you know that we all have different perspectives and parts within us that make up sort of our sense of of self and psyche and and, yeah. And some of those parts have been, you know, in the shadows, or have been disowned, or who have have been sort of locked in the basement and have not been attended to, and, and it's those parts that can kind of show up sideways for us. So like the mean voices in our heads, the way we talk to ourselves, in ways that we would never accept someone else talking to us, you know, just and, and those are right there, as I was saying before, in our relationship with health and self care. So you know, two voices you know, that are common around responsibility or the inner strict parent or the rebellious teenager, and both of those have shadowy aspects, you know, of of parts of us that we haven't been in direct relationship with. And so why are we avoiding like, what is it that we're really avoiding when when we don't do something that we know makes us feel more alive. What is it that we're trying to prove? Or who, who are we trying to to show that we have our act together when we put on this happy face, when we're feeling sad inside, or when we're striving to, you know, perfect everything. Who is that for? What is that for? You know, so there's there's underlying layers that, with support, we can begin to integrate and heal and come into direct relationship with and as a result, arrive more fully home and accept all of who we are in a way that we haven't before. And that frees us up to actually be able to actualize, you know, the changes we seek and to not constantly find ourselves in the boom or bust or the self sabotaging cycles that are Yeah, so shame ridden for for many of us in our self care journey,
yeah? Well, that reminds me of when I was talking to some clients about what they wanted in terms of what would be most supportive next and across the board, I got this feedback that what people felt was holding them back the most. Is that inner voice that you're talking about, that critic that's like, no matter what other tools they had, they were so critical of themselves. And I actually developed a course around that, because I felt like, wow, like all of these amazing people, brilliant people, smart, creative, funny, caring, experienced people are walking around beating themselves up so hard about things that are really, I mean, aren't even problems, right? Just like just turning on themselves and me included, right? It's like so but I wasn't like this. I think the shame piece is so important is the sense that we don't go around telling each other, hey, I was this mean to myself. So talking to other people and going, Oh, wow, this is a thing, like, I just work on it in my own way and with my own therapist and with my own process, but and I support people to work on it, but I actually hadn't put together how many people identified that as a core issue. And I love that that's part of the whole framework of, okay, if you're going to have this map to vitality, you can do all of the quote, unquote, good things in the world. And if you're walking around beating yourself up internally all the time. It's going to be hard to implement them, or they're not going to
stick Exactly. That's why it's key number two, because it's absolutely it's absolutely foundational. It really is because, yeah, you can, like you just said, sort of engage with all these practices, all these good things, and still not actually have the experience of feeling deeply alive and vital and and healthy because of this inner relationship that just keeps tripping you up and, and I love how you just named it's like you can't judge, you know, from the outside, who's walking around with these voices inside, but most of us are. And, you know, I feel like I've had the honor and privilege just through my work that it's like, you know, I kind of think of it sometimes like It's like confessional, just the things that I hold space for with other people that they name, that they don't share with, even their closest loved ones. And so there is this, this realm of our most intimate relationship with ourselves that can be riddled with, again, harm, you know, that harm we're doing to ourselves. And so the key, you know, key one and two together, to me, helped to really create that foundation of self care, actually being about care and kindness and love like to come to be able to turn towards ourself in that way is absolutely foundational. And, yeah, it's a really, really deep healing process to do that
the way that you described, that highlighted that the keys really do have an order to them. Obviously, it's not consistently linear for every person and every single thing, but but that you're starting with honoring your unique life and then facing and embracing your shadows. And then two keys that we haven't really talked about yet, three and four are strengthening your self awareness muscles and cultivating resilience. And so I'm curious about then that sort of build like, okay, you've faced your shadow, and then moving into that self awareness and resilience. Can you say more about how that evolves and why
you're seeing that play out? Yeah? Yeah. I mean, there is, there is definitely a sense of the keys building on themselves. And there's a way you know that they all kind of weave together too. So it's it's both, but key number three comes in with the strengthening self awareness muscles, because it's like, I also view that as a really foundational thing, to acknowledge that as a basic life skill most of us didn't learn to like, be able to listen to the feedback that we're getting from our body and being all the time that's actually letting us know what supports our vitality and what's not so supportive of our vitality. It's just, it's like a language we didn't learn and so actively taking time to expand and build those muscles of awareness, of like, oh, I ate that food. Like, now two hours later, what am I feeling? Or yeah, or Yeah, I didn't sleep well last night. Let's look back on the last day. Like, what, what were some of the things that happened, or what was happening in the night? You know, just with every single thing happening throughout our days, we can pause and just begin to build that noticing and begin to put things together to understand more. Because what we often think of as symptoms, you know, in disease, is actually it's our body just giving us some feedback. It's like, hey, yeah. This thing happened, and now I'm giving you this feedback here, this headache, yeah, yeah, it's giving you feedback about something, you know. So it's just to reorient around it being something that we're trying to get rid of, or, yeah, need to medicate away, to actually being curious. This, again, is where the curiosity comes in, so that that's the kind of the essence of key number three, and then key number four, cultivating resilience. Kind of acknowledges that with that foundation of having more of a sense of what our body's telling us, we can then actively try on some different skills, practices, supports, and then learn and see what actually supports our vitality and resilience, and resilience is coming from the place what I was saying before, of, of there's no such thing as a stress free life. So what we can do is sort of have different tools and practices and capacities to shift our state of being, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically in any moment, and so it's an ongoing learning throughout our lives. Like, yeah, you know, one example is a simple breath practice of slowing down our breathing. When we count to five or six on the in breath and out breath, it slows our breathing rate down in a way that actually shifts our nervous system into more of a parasympathetic rest and relaxed state. So there's lots of other breathing practices out there, so that's just one, but I love the simplicity of it, because simply slowing our breath rate down shifts our nervous system state. So we can do that anytime, anywhere, and that can shift our emotions, that can shift our feeling of in our body and other symptoms. So, yeah, I'll pause there, because there's so much more. But I could just go on and on. Yeah,
there's so much. And I mean, it really strikes me that every single one of these keys, and the overall picture is about cultivating resilience, right? That like, that's what the whole picture does, yeah, and I want to go back to what you were talking about with the symptoms being messengers, because I think that is a paradigm shift that is so crucial. And as a naturopath, you might actually diagnose you have this set of symptoms and it equals this thing. But you're you're not necessarily treating it as we're going after this disease, you're treating it as you're a whole person who has all of these experiences, and we want to create balance and a sense of well being for you. And as a an herbalist and a health coach and a nutrition consultant, I'm not doing any diagnosis, but functionally, it doesn't matter, because I'm looking at the pattern and I'm saying, oh, there's a pattern of heat and pain and tension here, and you're feeling distressed there, and we want to create balance for your whole system. I don't actually have to know what the diagnosis is. It might be useful for that person in the journey. And I can send them to someone like you and then say, hey, maybe a diagnosis would help this situation, but it's it's back to that kind of process oriented sense of the overall balance is really what you're working with, and that if we get fixated on that, we have to make a symptom go away. We miss all the messages that the symptom is providing, and that's such a big piece of I mean, we talked about allergies and brain fog at the beginning, right? If we, if we go in with I just have to make my sniffles go away. You can take lots of medications that will make your sniffles go away, that won't resolve any of the allergic response that's happening in the body, and resolving it sometimes makes it worse. For a minute, the symptom gets worse because your body's like, Oh, we're going to clear this out. We're going to move it through. So I'm wondering if you've seen your clients or your students struggle with making that shift, and how you support them to think about it differently.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, a lot of a lot of folks who who come to work with me, have, you know, maybe gotten to the point of realizing the things they've been doing hasn't really been working. So I do have have that where there's an openness, I think, to Yeah, sort of shift paradigm or try on, you know, different ways of approaching that that might not be, you know, as common in general population. And, you know. At the same time, yeah, I think that's part of the impetus to write the book, because it's, it's just sort of like how how to guide, How to guide folks into an understanding of a deeper paradigm shift and way of holding themselves and orienting towards themselves. Because it's, it's not just a quick teaching. It actually needs to be an embodied experience, you know, because it's, it's like one thing to get it up here, you know, intellectually, but it's another thing to actually start to understand, like, Oh, hey, when I paid attention to what that symptom was telling me and I did this thing instead of taking that pill. Or, you know, whatever the other approach might have been, yeah, I might have had a day or two where, you know, I felt a little bit worse, but then after that, like, my vitality felt better, you know, I felt better than I had in years. Or, you know, there's, there's experiences like that, when we trust the the wisdom of our own life energy and learn to become an ally to that. Like, one of the metaphors I use in my book is being a gardener of ourself. So that's that's part of key number one. So it's like an orientation, like there's this life energy in us. It's the same life energy in a seed that grows into a tree or another plant, and it has its own intelligence, and it it comes into this unique form that is us, you know, is me, yeah, but as if we orient as the gardener of ourself, we're looking like, you know, what is, what is nourishing? What do I offer as nourishment? What, Where do I need to plant myself? You know, what context best support me? What do I need to weed out of my life, or prune away or, you know? So it's like, it's kind of attending, but it's also a trusting of the innate intelligence of the life that is in my body and yours and yeah, and all the lights around us, but that sometimes we can get disconnected from, or maybe again, not have had that orientation to hold ourselves in that way.
So there are two more keys, but before we get to the last two keys. I think that what you just shared is a great segue into the herb that you chose to feature today, which is an herb that I'm just almost giddy to talk about with you, which is Tulsi holy basil. And so I'll share a bit with folks about the background of that herb, the common uses of that herb, but I'd love to know what made you choose Tulsi.
You know, it sort of goes along with what I've been saying, like I just, I chose it with just how I feel when I when I drink that tea, it's just, it's just like there's and I go through different phases with different herbs that I tease, that I drink. But this one right now, I'm looking over it right now I
it just, it evokes a feeling
of comfort, of calm, but also like energizing at the same time. So it's just, I don't know again, just kind of listening within and trusting that. It's just It's been such a colleague, they've been drinking it almost every day for months now. And so I don't feel like that's a very profound answer to the question, except that it's just like, it's me trusting my inner wisdom, and it just feels right and good. I've had other times where chamomile is the tea that I just can't get enough of, or, you know, something else. But right now, it's Tulsi. Yeah,
I think that's the most profound answer.
I think because
herbalism, when it interfaces with modern, Western culture, and I emphasis is on modern gets subsumed into the diagnosis treatment. You have this thing, take this pill, make it go away. Paradigm, and what you're describing is the way that herbalism has developed with humans since the dawn of time, which is when I interact with this plant, when I imbibe this plant, when I sit with it, when I put it on my skin, whatever it is, this is how I feel, and this is what shifts within me, and that's how I know it's working for me, and it might be very different for someone else, the same way we love to sit down with a really good friend and there's someone else who is someone else's really good friend who we don't really care to sit with because they're not. Right friend for us, and like the plants are like that too. Like you can be like, tool, see, is just so wonderful. And somebody else can be like, I don't really feel anything, or I don't really like it, and that's fine. It's not a commentary on the plant. It's just like, where the chemistry is at that time. So I love that answer so much. Thanks. I think that one of my longer term herbal teachers, Sage Maurer, who I just really admire the way that she goes so deep with relationship with plants, teaches that with every plant, like if you're going to know a plant, if you're going to look at the medicinal uses of a plant. If you're going to understand the science behind a plant, you don't really understand the plant until you've sat with it the way that you've described. And I can't imagine working with plants in any other way, like it would feel very strange to me to even recommend a plant to somebody that I hadn't sat with in that way and found out what it feels like. So I guess that being said, I'll give people, listeners here some some more technical information about tulsi to give that bigger framework, because that's also really important. Both sides are really important. It's the whole, the whole picture. And so it is actually a basil which is so fascinating to me, because we use basil all the time, but it's quite different than culinary basil. So culinary basil is the Occiumum basilicum. This is usually Occimum sanctum. There are some other botanical names, but Sanctum sacred, right? It's considered sacred. It's this really subtly profound plant. It's in the mint family, which I continue amazed by, like, Okay, I know why that's funny to me. I'm curious why that also makes you laugh. No, just that I sneezed.
Mints are good for respiratory things.
They're so useful. And it's, it's this, we have this idea of, oh, peppermint is something that's in candy, and that's sort of the extent that people think of mint. But the mint family, the Lameaceae family is full of really, really potent, useful, gentle but powerful going with the theme of your work, etc. It's like gentle but powerful plants. And so Tulsi, we use the leaves and the flowers, and it's a warming, drying herb. Generally, it has a pungent, sweet taste, and it does almost everything it's like so profoundly useful. I actually I was introduced to it in a deeper way, like I was familiar with it, but I was invited into a deeper relationship with it three or four years ago, when I had had COVID for the first time, and I, I'm afraid to say COVID on podcasts, because I'm afraid there's gonna be like, a like, the bots are gonna censor it.
I had been sick with the pandemic for
the first time, and I was quite sick, and my physical therapist said, you know, in India, the Ayurvedic community is doing a lot of research on long COVID, and they're finding that Tulsi is one of the most supportive herbs for long COVID. So give it a try. And I started drinking it, and found it really helpful, and I've recommend it to to other folks who found it really helpful for just sort of, like, chronic things. But it's an adaptogen, so it's helping you respond to stress, and it's sort of big thing is a relaxing nervine, so it helps, like, tone and balance your nervous system and relax high levels of stress. But it's also antimicrobial, and it's a digestive support herb, and it's good for your cardiovascular system, and it's an expectorant, and it's neuro protective, so protecting your nervous system, and it's an antioxidant, and it's an immuno modulator, and it's analgesic, so it's helping with pain and like, what does this plant not do? You can really use it in so many different ways. And in Ayurveda, it's, it's a Rasayana herb. So it's, it's something that supports overall health and lengthens your lifespan. And Western medicine has been doing a lot of research unless it's been used forever in Ayurvedic medicine, but scientific research is also supporting that it really measurably reduces anxiety and measurably improves cognitive function and supports digestion and blood sugar balance and dental like periodontal health and just all. Of these things, and it's like this humble, little basil plant, and it's so gentle and the flavor is not super strong. Most people can enjoy the flavor and not feel like some herbs that are really powerful. People have, you know, strong reactions to the taste. So I'm very excited that you wanted to bring this plant into the into the field today, and I'm curious if anything that I was just sharing there stood out to you as something that you want to dive further into.
Well, just, I think it tastes really great, too. And it might just be, it might just be the resonance that I have with it, but I just, yeah, I think it's really yummy. And yeah, I loved hearing that whole long list because, you know, it's been a while since I studied it. And, yeah, it's just, you know, with everything, blood, the fullness of life right now, it's just like, oh, maybe that's why I'm drawn to it for that list of 20 things, yeah. Just feels, yeah. I mean, it sort of affirms, yeah, not that I need that outside affirmation, but it's just like, yeah, like, yeah. I trust that, that sense of the serving me right now and and I like, yeah, that it's so versatile.
Yeah, it's the word efficient comes to mind too. I'm like, Wow, there's so much going on in the world and cover all the bases with this one cup of tea. Yeah, so coming back to the last two keys, key eight, inviting and supporting connection and key nine, living like you matter. Talking about Tulsi really made me think about that inviting and supporting connection piece, and that it's not just human, the ways that we do that and the simple act of drinking a cup of tea that you feel drawn to as a way of living like you matter. Hey, I'm going to pause and take care of myself and nurture myself as I go through the day. Can you say more about these last two keys. Yeah,
yeah, they um,
key number eight and again. You know, there's not a hierarchy of the keys, so in a way, key number eight could be right at the beginning too. You know, I just, I want to say that, because inviting support and connection to me also feels like absolutely essential and foundational and and this key acknowledges just that, as humans, we're relational creatures. And, and I love that you brought the non human world into it just now too. But it's just like acknowledging that, like when we truly honor our unique life, when we really have our own back, and we're oriented like with that fierce Mama Bear love. You know that part of doing what it takes is recognizing like we need others. You know it's like, yes, we're ultimately in charge of stewarding this body, and we need others. Yeah, we need others in in an intimate way. We need others in professional support ways and and, and to actually be intentional about creating a team of support and and one element that I, I personally emphasize a lot, and it's a passion of mine, is bringing people together in community, and particularly healing communities where we're growing and healing together. So that sense of isolation and the shame and these voices that are we only hear ourselves or share with, you know, a practitioner here or there actually gets brought out, and we get to heal together by recognizing, hey, I have that too, and I have that too, and our paths might be different, but there's there's a resonance and an understanding and mutual support, and just the vital importance of that and that in our modern day culture, least in this part of the world, like it's that piece of that community connection is largely missing so so all of that's Part of key number eight, and then key number nine, living like you matter is, is healing the split, you know, between caring for ourself and caring for others. You know, so many of us, especially those of us who are showing up in service for the world, or as parents, or, you know, just have so much to give. Give, give and and that's really reinforced, and it's a natural extension of ourselves, and we can give in an in a way that is unsustainable for what our own body being is able to do without filling our own well. So it's it's acknowledging that filling our own well. Caring for ourself is the foundation that allows us to show up and live like we matter, to show up in support of others in our collective future. You know, whether it's close in as a mama or a dad, you know, or out there, you know, facing global issues in a big way, it's, it's wherever. Our unique calling is however we're called to serve, that tending to our own well being is the beginning of that they're not at odds with one another. They're they're part of the same cycle. And yeah, so that wraps to me, like that orientation of living like, living like I matter, connects right into honoring, you know, this unique life. It wraps up. You know, not that they're a bundle, but that's what I'm feeling. Wraps up the keys, but it just, it just feels like it connects it all, that the outward orientation is connected with our self care.
I love that you bring that full circle, because there's often this split that says, if I'm of service and I'm taking care I shouldn't take care of myself, or I shouldn't value myself, or if I'm taking care of myself and being selfish, or I only take care of myself and I disconnect from in the outside world, and the way that you're framing that and sharing that is they're absolutely the same thing in certain ways. It's just which part of the spectrum you're on in a particular moment. But they can be happening simultaneously, and arguably, they need to be happening simultaneously much of the time, and and that it's an interesting like those two things are things that have been separated, that actually need to come back together. And earlier, we were talking about the the idea of discipline, and that it's become enmeshed with punishment, and that actually needs to be separated. But the idea of self care and world care and care for others actually needs to come together and be one sort of ball of care.
Yeah, yes, yeah. And I'm really feeling that for all of us at this time in history, you know, it's just, yeah, I think the level of overwhelm right now and stress that folks are living under, you know, it's just, it's so incredibly vital to be tending to ourselves so that we have more to give.
Yeah. So right now, you have a program that is starting soon. We are recording in late February of 2025, so if people are listening, Deborah will probably have more programs in the future. If you're listening in the far future, but right now, there's a program coming up. Can you tell us how people can do this work with you
now the program coming up is called Vital U. It's a nine month retreat based program for eight women. So it's a nice, intimate cohort. We'll meet together four times over the course of nine months, and we'll have virtual support in between. It's my deepest offering, and weaves together all my passions. The whole first retreat is on the nine keys that we've been touching into on this call. And then that's the foundation for for the rest. And yeah, you can find me at Vitalmedicine.com and I expect it, you know, hopefully, to to fill quickly the early bird deadlines the end of March. And yeah, if you're at all curious, don't hesitate to reach out. And I'm happy to have a chat with you and and see if it might be of support at this time.
Thank you. And I can say that I've seen people go through this program with you multiple times over the years, and I've heard life changing stories like the way that people really feel a completely new orientation towards their own vitality. So is there anything that we didn't touch on today that you'd like to make sure that we presence?
I guess the only other thing, just because it's fresh and new for me, is, is audiobook version as a vitality map just just came out like it's two weeks ago now. And yeah, this was a real labor of love for me. I narrated myself, and yeah, and I just, I know for myself that reading non fiction, you know, is, is hard often these days, but when I do it through an audio book, it's it's a way that I can really connect with the teaching and the author and and that was my hope in creating an audio version of the book that that others in the fullness of life can can still benefit and drop in and get a felt experience for these nine keys that we've been talking about today.
We also have such a meditative, calming voice, so
delightful to listen to,
and people can find that on. Your website, vitalmedicine.com, under books, correct? Yeah, yep,
it's there, yeah, Amazon, Audible, Apple books, yeah,
great. And I'll include those links in the show notes as well. So if you're listening, you can go into the show notes and just click right through. Well, Deborah, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a beautiful journey and weaving in and out of lots of different levels, and it's always a delight to talk with you. So thanks for being here.
Thanks so much, Jeanell, I really appreciate Yeah, just the insights and questions and yeah, where the dialog was able to go today. Love your guidance.
Thanks so much. We'll talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening to the lettuce loves you. Don't forget to like, review and share this podcast so more people can benefit. Your one small action helps us get these reflections on belonging and nourishment to the people who need to hear them. And I appreciate it more than you know. I have more free offerings at Eco that's e-c-o spiritual education. Ecospiritualeducation.com/freestuff. This podcast provides educational information about traditional edible and medicinal uses of plants. This should never be construed as medical or dietary advice. Always consult with a medical provider before making dietary changes. The music you've been listening to is tu b'shvat by Batya Levine, used with permission and a lot of gratitude. Until next time, remember the lettuce loves you, You belong to the earth, and Life really does Want to nourish You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
